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General Discussion / Re: No deal Brexit?
« Last post by old timer on Yesterday at 01:11:05 PM »
I think we will end up as a third class country. Which is what we deserve. Because our politicians are determined not to work together for the good of the country. The Conservatives are all trying to stab May in the back what little support she has Is Not Enough. The EU see she have very little support so why should we negotiate when we have a nearly over a barrel. Labour are not much better. Are you going to give the worst deal they possibly can. You have Merkel the says Britain must be punished a macron is no different. Cannot negotiate with somebody who does not want to negotiate an EE you have made it perfectly clear over the last year or so that they have no intention of negotiating at all which is why they keep coming up with most ludicrous of ideas that nobody in their right mind would ever agree. I think we would do far better just following WTO rules. We paying a lot of taxes on things that are imported from the rest of the world due to EU taxes on imported goods.
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General Discussion / Re: No deal Brexit?
« Last post by herbfinder on September 23, 2018, 08:46:05 PM »
The more I hear people discussing Brexit the more I am aware of the the fact that this is totally uncharted territory and nobody knows the possible repercussions. I do believe though that in the future when the dust settles and books and TV programmes try explain what happened we as a generation will be held to blame for the most disruptive time in recent history and we will have to try and explain to our children how we allowed it to happen. I hope in the long run it all works out and will be the start of new era of prosperity and enlightenment but I have a sinking feeling that we have burdened the future generations to come with a fait accompli that will leave the UK as a 3rd class country.
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General Discussion / Re: No deal Brexit?
« Last post by levissima on September 23, 2018, 12:22:33 PM »
For information, I worked in a prison which housed a number of IRA convicted terrorists. They were all released and repatriated under the good Friday agreement.
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General Discussion / Re: No deal Brexit?
« Last post by Venatore on September 23, 2018, 03:05:28 AM »
Apologies my last reply was in response to Relaxed not 2heads.
V.
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General Discussion / Re: No deal Brexit?
« Last post by Venatore on September 23, 2018, 02:55:29 AM »
Not a ‘snide comment ‘ about Levi 2heads just a statement of fact.
You may not remember the IRAs declaration of ‘ by the ballot or the bullet’ or vote for us or we kill you.... Is this the legitimate political process for the future?
Thankfully the IRA failed in Ireland because the protagonists got old, they lost their overseas funding and the people became used to the violence.
Since they killed more of my countrymen than the British ever did I can’t say Ill miss them, however, still they seem to have their apologists especially oddly in the UK. You won’t find me with many positive words for the DUP but at least they embrace the democratic process which may not always work in our favour but is I think better than the alternative.
As to crashing out with no deal you may be right or you may be wrong, only time will tell.
V.

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General Discussion / Re: No deal Brexit?
« Last post by Relaxed on September 22, 2018, 11:10:41 PM »
As far as Switzerland is concerned, that country has made many reciprocal agreements (including embracing Schengen), with EU countries. May had the opportunity to make such agreements, but she has ruled them out because her interpretation of the 'will of the people' (plus her unilateral decision to boot out the ECJ) has backed her into a dreadful hole.

I don't understand Venatore's snide comment about Levi 'working with IRA members', nor the dismissal of political Republicanism as psychopathic.

But the Irish border (IMO) isn't the main issue. (Gibraltar also has a view on this land border issue.) 

The main issue is the economic suicide which will happen, and an important side issue is the retrospective destruction of the acquired rights of EU citizens in the UK, and us lot, and to what end? That is the big question - what are the benefits of exiting the EU?

Nobody has convinced me of any benefits whatsoever.

I'm not a 'big government' fan (a bit like Nicholas Ridley, who memorably said that he didn't fancy Europe because Britain was difficult enough to govern, so what hope was there for people thinking they could rule Europe). I was engaged by that argument at the time, but honestly I believe that the EU have demonstrated that they can make a pretty good fist of herding cats, and that Tusk and Barnier are as close to honest brokers as we see these days, and that the diabolic combination of May and Corbyn either do not know what they are doing, or that they know they are Putin's puppets.

It's going to be a no deal crash out exit from the EU, so fasten your seatbelts.
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General Discussion / Re: No deal Brexit?
« Last post by Venatore on September 22, 2018, 05:58:49 PM »
2heads
It does demonstrate however there are mechanisms by which deals can be done and that mechanism was arrived at through debate and reasoning.. is the opposite to a wishful approach a dogmatic one? If it is I’m not sure it’s going to serve any one very well. Lines in the sand have a history of being erased either through attrition or discourse and giving up usually leads to the former.
Petty regional squabbles can lead to international conflict as Winston recognised when he called for the first European accord in Norway 1949
Tusk’s smug cherry picking comments made him look not as smart as he thought he was and though I love it and voted to remain part of it I am starting to feel ashamed of Europe too as it slides back to its small world position.
“There are none as blind as those that won’t see”
I will continue to hope for the best but expect the worst.
V.
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General Discussion / Re: No deal Brexit?
« Last post by 2Heads on September 22, 2018, 05:03:41 PM »
My point was Switzerland is not part of the EU but is surrounded by EU countries and borders 5 separate countries, yet it manages to trade successfully. In fact there are many road routes in and through Switzerland where only a signat the side of the road signifies the border. So if it can be accommodated there why not elsewhere?
I am afraid that this is an example of wishful thinking in the 'cherry picking' area.
The trade involves accepting EU rules and regulations  which Brexiteers wont accept and also paying into the EU budget - another 'no-no'
The movement across the borders is accomplished by Switzerland being a party to the Schengen Agreement which has never been the case for the UK.
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General Discussion / Re: No deal Brexit?
« Last post by Venatore on September 22, 2018, 04:20:27 PM »
My point was Switzerland is not part of the EU but is surrounded by EU countries and borders 5 separate countries, yet it manages to trade successfully. In fact there are many road routes in and through Switzerland where only a signat the side of the road signifies the border. So if it can be accommodated there why not elsewhere?
Fear is the tool of Tyranny, it is used to get the common man to capitulate and has been used by despots the world over. I don’t know in what capacity Levi may have worked with IRA members but I would suggest many were in it for different reasons. Some were for money and became rich, some for power and became politicians, some were psychopaths and enjoyed hurting people and continue to do so and if given the opportunity such people will take advantage against . There are always apologists for the terrible actions of the past and it is probably part of the human condition to embrace avoidance as a coping mechanism. Being Irish I feel much safer now saying I am ashamed of myself and of my fellow countrymen for not standing up against the actions carried out in my name against others. There are and always will be little Stalins the world over and all they need to flourish is the perpetuation of fear and ignorance.
V.
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General Discussion / Re: No deal Brexit?
« Last post by 2Heads on September 22, 2018, 04:18:08 PM »
The problem with the Eire/Northern Ireland border is not a vague and unimportant one.
The EU and UK virtually agreed on a way forward on the border issue but this was scuppered by the DUP. Despite their intransigence Theresa May has her hands tied because she bribed them in order to stay in power and knows that at any point they could bring down her Government. As with many (most) politicians one can see that she is more interested in keeping her party and herself in power than she is in looking for the best for the UK's future.
And, of course, there is the knotty problem of the Good Friday Agreement which will be torn up by Brexit. Over the past 20 years it has been surprisingly successful (compare and contrast with the Oslo agreement for Israel/Palestine) and has, to all intents and purposes marginalised dissidents on either side of the border. Only one party was seriously opposed to the GFA ....the DUP .....and they could be heading towards reintroducing unrest, supported by Theresa May for the 'good' of her party.
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